Welcome And Why Culture Matters

Tom Esch 0:00

Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast.

Marc Culver 0:06

Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast, a public works podcast of the nerds, for the nerds, and by the nerds. I'm your host, Marc Culver. Today we're going to talk about culture. Culture sometimes feels like a four-letter word, I think, in public works, maybe because we don't really understand what it means. Maybe we're not really doing a good job of defining that term for organizations. But in any event, culture and the expectations we have for our employees and our workplace environment is so important to not only attracting employees, but also retaining those employees once we have them and delivering our services effectively and most importantly safely. So to help us understand this concept today, we're talking to Tom Ash, who helps organizations, particularly construction firms and public works agencies, have relevant and meaningful conversations on the topic of culture, communication, empathy, and other very important topics. Welcome, Tom.

Tom Esch 1:06

Thank you, Marc. Nice to be here on National Donut Day. National Donut Day, yes.

Marc Culver 1:11

So now you know when we recorded this podcast, and yes, he did bring donuts. So kudos to Tom. Thank you for joining us today, for joining me today. I don't know why I keep talking in the plural for this thing, but um it is a one-man show, people. Um so but yeah, thanks for joining us and thanks for bringing the donuts. Um, so Tom, why don't you take a little bit of time, introduce yourself, and fill us in on your origin story and how you got involved in this?

Tom Esch 1:39

Sure.

Tom Ash Origin Story

Tom Esch 1:40

Yeah. Well, it's a different route, as many of your listeners probably have had, uh uh, not a typical route, as you also have not taken a straight line to where you are now. I grew up here in Roseville, Minnesota, you know, dreaming of being a pro ball player. That didn't go well. So my faith was important to me. Come from a very devout Catholic family. Both my parents were very devout Catholics and uh got into the seminary at the University of Notre Dame and was ordained a Catholic priest in 1994. Wow. I only lasted two years. I just couldn't pull off the lifestyle, and I realized I needed to do something else. Yeah, been married 26 years now, it's working out a little better. Yep. But I got a lot of rich um education and formation in those 10 years in and around uh Notre Dame with the priests of Holy Cross that I that believe it or not, I still use a lot of that training in my work. And and in your comedy routines, and in my comedy routines, yes, it's another story. So so I got married to a woman I knew in high school and college, uh, and and then we trying to figure out what do you do to pay the mortgage, Mark, you know. And so I I got after a few stints in the nonprofit world and the church world, I got into the construction supply world. Went to work for Esh Construction Supply. Some of your listeners might even know them. They have four branches now in the Midwest. My brother owns that company. Okay. My uncle owned it before him, my dad owned it under a different name before him, and my grandpa started it back in the 40s. Wow. Esh name has been in construction, serving private contractors and no doubt cities and public works departments since the 40s. So it was easy to get in that world, but I didn't love it for all 10 years. I got tired of it in the last couple of years. I thought I used to be a priest, helping people communicate, connect with their faith, make a difference in the world, live in integrity. And I thought I need to do something closer to that. So I went and got a second master's degree in conflict resolution and organizational change work.

Marc Culver 3:49

A different kind of calling, perhaps, for you.

Tom Esch 3:51

Different calling, yes. Different calling, similar, but different. And uh launched my business in 2012, the year that the Mayans said the world would end. Right. Thought that's a safe year to start a business if the Mayans were right. Well, the risk is limited then, right? And uh struggled the first few years, as most business owners do, but finally got some traction and have been going pretty strong since about 2015, mostly with private contractors, but in the last few years, and maybe the last five, more and more cities and public works leaders are engaging me for coaching, for training, and things like that around safety and culture. And the safety thing came in when we got

The Safety Wake Up Call

Tom Esch 4:35

the call one day that somebody had been killed by a diamond blade. I sold them. Oh, wow. In Wisconsin. I covered Wisconsin as part of my territory. And it's it's out in the public, it's known. If you want to look it up, it was 2009, it was April 15th, and it was a big moment in our life because it could have been the end of the business had we had I made a mistake. I didn't make a mistake. The young man didn't use the saw properly, didn't support the pipe he was cutting. And and it was a horrible, horrible, tragic death. But it got me into safety, Mark. So it was kind of the that safety moment was the link between selling diamond blades and doing training, consulting around culture and safety. That was the bridge, that moment. Uh, because I've trained over 9,000 operators on how to not get hurt with that saw. And many of those are from cities in Colorado, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Illinois, here in Minnesota. Um, mostly I'm not doing the technical training anymore. I occasionally still do it uh because it's kind of fun to pick up a saw and show these guys that the skinny old guy actually knows a couple things about how to run a saw and what to do and what not to do to avoid injury with that tool. So that's how I that's kind of how I landed here, I guess. Something like that.

Marc Culver 5:54

Yeah. And so how long have you been doing the training?

Tom Esch 5:57

Well, I've been running my business since 2012. Right. And and I've been, well, I I said I've been in the public works world five, six years, like very specifically in deep, but I've been working in and around cities since I started 25 years ago. Mark, I serviced the city of Minneapolis, did some things with the city of St. Paul, selling diamond blades for the guys cutting the streets, uh, the guys cutting pipe. Um so yeah, I I was I've been involved in and around the city world, but I've been very, very involved, probably more like seven, eight years, um, some of the cities that I've worked with in Omaha and Denver long time doing doing some culture change work, some safety improvement work. Yeah. And showed some great results in one of those, in one of those places, we really uh showed some amazing results.

Marc Culver 6:48

Well, since you

Cutting Injuries By 70 Percent

Marc Culver 6:50

mentioned that, why don't you go ahead and get into that story?

Tom Esch 6:53

Yes. Well, it was a situation, about a hundred workers, uh, public works, two in sewer and water, sewer maintenance and some construction in and around uh the sewer world, and they had injuries, a lot of them. Um about 23, 24 a year. Wow. Under a hundred workers, wow, is the right answer. That's an amazing percentage. That's an alarming. And they're mostly strains and sprains, right? Yeah. And it's in a tough guy culture. You you can imagine the culture. I can do that. Guys who are a little older, maybe they're not all in great shape, and they haven't picked up a manhole in two months, and one day they gotta pick up 50 of them, and they're not gonna they're not gonna use the pry bar because that's for sissies. Yeah. And and they do 50 or 100 of those in a day or two, and all of a sudden you throw your back out, and that's an expensive injury. Or you tear your rotator cuff, or you, or you get pinched, pinched by, you know, people got things pinched, thumbs, toes, all kinds of things. So we worked with the leadership to get alignment on what they really wanted to do because the leaders then and and some new leaders came in. That was key. We had a ext change of leadership in the city. Yeah, and the new leaders said nobody's dying on our watch. Because as they looked at the data, they thought somebody's gonna die, someone, we're gonna lose somebody. You know, we have we've had too many close calls. And so they engaged me, and and we built a team and did it all collaboratively, and and we did some really good strategic planning with the top city managers. We did some great uh training with the foreman and the superintendents, and we did some coaching, we did some 360 process where they got feedback from 360 degrees above them, below them, at their level. And after three years, we exceeded the goal that we set and we lowered the injuries by 70%. It went down to about six or seven a year, and that's held pretty strong. There are also much less serious injuries, yeah. So far fewer and less serious. That's that's a home run. Uh, not everything I've done has ended that well, and not every organization wants to do a deep dive into culture because it's tough, it's challenging to do, and plenty of cultured change efforts fail. Anyone who knows the business I'm in knows. They say three out of five don't go the way that they're planned. This one went better than planned. So it was it was a great experience.

Marc Culver 9:31

Do you know where there are other improvements within that organization through through that training, through those those messages and such about culture? Were there noted differences otherwise besides just the safety side?

Tom Esch 9:46

Yes, you know, absolutely. The H the head of HR for the whole city said that we reduced their time within the sewer and water department by 80%. Wow. That and that was they said um up to 80%, I think was the exact quote uh they gave. You can check my white paper if you want. I have a white paper we'll mention later. It's in the white paper. Um, and I don't have the official permission to use the name of the city, that's why I'm not. Yep, yep, uh they didn't go through all the legal avenues, but it's a true story. Everybody who knows what we did knows it's it's really what happened. And HR said, we have to come over far less often because your foremen are handling things, because the managers have alignment, because the managers are communicating well with the foreman, the foremen are communicating better than they were with the field guys. Everybody's getting along a little better. There, there's a lot more smiles, a a lot more, you know, good morale, a lot more um connection among the guys, and that and that made a real difference and paid off in safety and and in culture. It also attracted others to that. And if you wow, yeah, imagine that. People want to go to work in the sewer and water world. They were leaving streets to go work in sewer and water, leaving parks to go to work to sue in sewer and water. You got to be doing something right to go want to work with the sewage market. Right, right. No, I I know, I know. And uh we did, it was a team effort. I was fortunate to be one of the main leaders, but it was definitely a team process. Uh, and not easy, not easy. We had a lot of headaches and a lot of deep, tough conversations. Yeah, and there were moments where I had to where I screwed up and I had to eat crow. Oh, really? Yes, yes.

Marc Culver 11:32

You want to share any specific?

Tom Esch 11:34

Uh I'll just share quickly on that. But there was one guy, a very tough fellow, uh, who took nothing from no one. And uh the leaders kind of hand handled him with some kit gloves, and they and they didn't really ever take him straight on. And I underestimated how strong and influential this guy was because I took him straight on. Yeah, you know, and I interviewed him, and and the interview didn't go well. He didn't like how straight I was asking him questions, and and I said some things that that were too strong and too direct. And he got up and walked out of the meeting and went to the my boss and said that I was unprofessional and that I was inappropriate and that I needed to apologize to him. That's a tricky moment, Mark. So I had to eat a little crow there, and it was part of the whole thing. I I learned something. I think I was too strong with him. I think I was too direct with him, especially in light of how the culture had been relating with him. So that was a really good lesson. He taught me a lesson. I'm grateful for that. He's not an easy thing.

Marc Culver 12:38

But do you think you are too direct with him because of his personality, I guess. Right? Yes, right. And and I guess I mean it's just like when you're managing different people, you have to you have to figure out how people are motivated. Um how do you how do you challenge somebody? How do you um praise them? You know, things like that. Yeah, and each individual is different, obviously. Yeah, and so you kind of had to figure that out for yourself, but but clearly there was a problem with that personality in the workplace. Yes. So it's kind of interesting that like I mean, I I I listened to the story and I'm like, well, you had to apologize, but clearly he was in the wrong too.

Tom Esch 13:21

Absolutely, you know, absolutely, and never fully held accountable from my point of view on that.

Marc Culver 13:26

And and that's largely part of the problem with that culture, exactly, exactly.

Tom Esch 13:29

And we and things have improved, things have definitely improved.

Marc Culver 13:32

Yeah, um so let's let's talk about you know, I think that's that is a uh a moment there that is that is an example of how difficult

Why Communication Fails In The Field

Marc Culver 13:45

the people in this industry can be to quote quote unquote train.

Tom Esch 13:50

Yeah.

Marc Culver 13:50

Um but maybe talk a little bit more about that, like some of the challenges of and why is it difficult to do some of these trainings and and workshops and things like that.

Tom Esch 14:06

Well, communication is far and away the number one thing I hear about, Mark, in my work. Can you help us communicate? The guys can't communicate, they don't communicate, they're horrible communicators, and it's no surprise. The largely men, more and more women are coming in, which is great. Yep, we need them because they tend to be better communicators. I think most even most guys would agree with that. Yep. Um, but the communication isn't great. People don't get hired, Mark, in public works or construction because they have great communication skills or great emotional intelligence, or they're great at having a crucial conversation. They just don't. They get hired because they have a strong back, they have a good work ethic, and they show up on time. Yeah, that's that's kind of who they're looking for. Yep. Or it used to be who they're looking for. Good quick correction. Yeah. Um so I think communication is really one of the toughest things. So as you're training people, you have to realize this is the culture. These are these are not necessarily PhDs in communication at all. That that's that is not they're here to do the work and get the work done. Some guys get into construction because maybe they didn't do so well in school, and the and and they like using their hands and they like to be outside, but they don't want you to talk to them, they don't want to have to interact. And maybe that guy's really good at his job, and then he gets promoted to foreman, and then he gets promoted to superintendent. Now he's a district manager, zero people skills, maybe, right? But he's a producer, he can get the work done, he runs the equipment like nobody's business. And the public works director loves him from one angle because he gets things done when there's a snowstorm or a water main break or trouble anywhere in the city. That's your go-to guy. But he's not friendly, he's not kind, he's old school. We still have more than a few of these guys running around. So that you know, and and this fellow I mentioned was that that in spades. He was definitely um one uh tough cookie to deal with, but but also really politically skillful in a whole nother way. And some of these guys who might be not great relationally also are very powerful with their influence, partly because of their expertise. Right. So you have to know how to handle all that. And I I enjoy the challenge of doing that, Mark. And most of the time, I'm able to be effective. Most of the time, my work makes a difference, and people tell me it makes a difference and tell me that I have a knack for reaching the some of the tougher characters and relating to them and treating them well and treating them with respect and challenging them, and then giving them tools. They just haven't had the tools, Mark. You know, they they need the some basic tools in communication, and and many of them pick them up quickly once they get them. They want to learn them. They're interested in getting along better with their crew, they don't want fights either. Nobody wants to have conflict.

Marc Culver 17:14

You know, and and and in my you know, there's part of me that wants to say limited time in public works, but but I I have been doing this for you know over 20 years now. So it's not so limited, I guess. But you know, one of the things that I am noticing within the workforce that I didn't see, like when I was at Maplegrove, uh, for instance, is that the younger generation is seeing this. And maybe we are doing a better job, maybe we are finally doing a better job as leaders in um communic, making some communication to our staff that, you know, we are looking for our next leaders, we're looking for the for the next supervisors and managers, and we need you to raise your hand. You know, we we need you to tell us that you want this job so that we can prepare you. But but I'm seeing more and more people raise their hand and saying, Hey, I want to go do this training. I want to go do this, I want to learn how to do this, I wanna, I want to prepare myself for that position when so and so retires. And and that's a great thing because it allows us to do some succession planning and um and prepare these people. You know, I I've had a I've seen a couple of examples of people get promoted to a supervisor level. And you touched on this. Like we were promoting these people into uh leadership positions, management positions, and they don't know how to discipline people, they don't know how to communicate with people, they don't know how to uh reward people. Um and more importantly, the and and all of this is is really the overall umbrella of this is they don't know how to communicate. Um and and I've seen some really bad things occur because of that. Um so this is great. I mean, and I I know uh and I'm not sitting here trying to pat myself on the back, but I have been very intentional with my staff coming in here, telling them that I want to train you. I can't train all of you for

Training That Builds Real Leaders

Marc Culver 19:20

this, but I want to train those that want to be trained on how to be future leaders. And I will say, you know, your courses, your workshops in that give us an opportunity to do that. So maybe talk a little bit about some of the workshops you've held that you've had recently and and what what you do in those. Sure.

Tom Esch 19:39

Yeah, we we decided to do kind of a communication 101 and a communication 201. So we have two levels designed for foremen and superintendents. Yep. Anyone could come, Mark, who's an uh emerging leader, a public works director, a deputy could come uh because we're teaching um in one from one angle, pretty basic communication stuff like body language, tone of voice, actual words you use, rank and power, which gets a little more advanced. That we cover in in communication 201. But you sent a bunch of guys. I think you've sent like 15, 20 different guys, uh, but we've done three of these now, and we're getting 30 to 40 people signing up from about eight, nine different cities. And we do them in Moundsview, and it's three hours, and the guys coming, just like you said, and it's partly because they self-select. I'm often doing training for a private construction company or a city where they just send everybody. Right. Right. They send all 80 or all 50 or all 180, you know. But in this case, the trainings, what's so fun for me is these are guys who want to be in the room. Yep. So by and large, uh the the engagement has been great, the attitude has been great, the learning has been great. I'm getting some of the best feedback I've ever gotten in in you know a long time of doing this kind of work. Uh 15 years I've been doing things like this. And uh these are super fun. And it's it's not always easy to get people in the room nowadays to show up, pay, but uh, there's a hunger in public works right now. And I know there's lots of places people get training. I know the APWA has some great training. Wally Weissipul is a is a hero and pioneer, as you know, in that whole world. So there's lots of places for people to get training, but there isn't near enough from my point of view for how many people are out there and how many people want to, you know, take the next step and take the next level. So so I'm designing these trainings and giving them different levels, and I'm probably going to be doing a communication three or sort of a third level thing. And I want them to go through first and second to get to the third. But I also do say, Mark, if you know somebody who's a really darn good leader and they just need they need that extra edge or they they want to get better at using their power more effectively or being aware of their. Rank. And this is this is pretty unique in my work, Mark. I think you know this. I really think it's important to have awareness of your rank, not just your position, but your internal rank by your psychology. Because in conflict-reticent cultures like Minnesota, where we we hate conflict, right? I mean, everybody hates it, but Minnesota has a particular aversion to conflict, an especial way of sweeping things under the rug that often end up very badly in one way or another, including safety. Yep. So I'm I'm training people on how to understand who has the rank and power and how to how to not overuse it. So if somebody is too old school, they're probably overusing it, being too direct, too strong, too directive, too command and control. If somebody is too diplomatic, too nice, they never have the conversation, they're underusing it. Right. And sometimes it's by their position and sometimes it's by their psychology. In a conflict like ours here in Minnesota, if somebody's one step down, but they outrank the other in psychology and they're expressive and strong-willed and kind of fearless around conflict, they can trump their own boss. And then the inmates are running the island. Right. And that's not a good situation. And that does happen in some cities. It does. You've seen it. I think it happens in more cities than it doesn't happen. You've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, especially nowadays, Marcus. Things have shifted as as the world has changed and shifted. And I'm all for the good changes. But some of the new school changes have have over has overshot their target, I think, and are too much. Uh, let's sit down, let's all talk about it. Let's see what's talk about our feelings. Talk about our feelings. I mean, I'm all for feelings, but I think the pendulum has swung a little bit, and people feel like, well, I I can't say anything anymore. It's the new, it's the new way. Right. I can't hold these young punks accountable. They they're on their phone and they take every Friday off and they get whatever they want. And that's not the answer either. No, we need to bring the pendulum back. No.

Marc Culver 24:04

Um, on that point, and I know one of the the trainings that you've held, and and we've talked about this online and offline a couple of times, but one of the topics that you you talk about is empathy. And, you know, not only leading with empathy, but also, you know, holding people accountable with empathy. Yes. And maybe talk a little bit about that and why that's so hard in this industry.

Tom Esch 24:31

Yeah. I developed that because so many cities were telling me uh nobody holds anyone accountable around here. That's one of the other most common things I hear.

Accountability Starts With Empathy

Tom Esch 24:40

So I did a lot of thinking about it and I developed a whole program. It's called If You Want Accountability, Start with Empathy. And I said that because by the time somebody gets around to wanting to bring me in, there's trouble. Yep. And there's been conflict, and people have left, or people don't come in, or things aren't being done right, or safety is an issue. And then they're like, Well, what are we gonna do? And then there's a tendency to want to be hardline and go old school and be like, you know, we're just gonna force everybody to come in 15 minutes early. We're gonna force everybody to stay here every day till 3:30. We don't care if your kid's playing softball or baseball, right? You go to this kind of where if you really want effective culture over time, you've got you've got to have moments where you start with the empathy. You start with, how are you doing, Mark? instead of hey, dumb A S S, which is what they say some of the time. You start with uh somebody, somebody maybe got injured and it's a minor injury, they did something totally stupid, and you notice they looked very tired. You might want to say, How are you doing first? How's your well-being? Are you getting sleep? That might be a good place to start. Mental health is a big issue now, just about everybody knows. Yeah, suicide is a huge issue in the private construction world. I'm not sure about the public uh world with suicides, Mark. Right. I've got I'm gonna research that. I told you last time I'm gonna look that up and see if there's a correlation, but it's the second highest industry construction for suicides. So, you know, I think uh start with empathy, which isn't the natural move for a lot of these guys. The natural move is to go hardcore. Now, the younger guys and the women coming in are a little different. Yeah, they're wearing different than the baby boomers, the above 50 average guy does not naturally have a lot of empathy. Uh, some of them do. And uh I think the ones that are coming to my classes that you're sending, those are some amazing guys. I'm really impressed with them the emotional maturity and the the managerial skills that some of those guys have are actually impressive compared to other places where I've worked, uh, tough, tougher crowds. So, yeah, the empathy is important, and it's and you and yet you don't want to overdo it. You can't overdo it either.

Marc Culver 26:58

Yeah.

Tom Esch 26:58

You know, like I have a little skit I do in the trainings where it's it's called my dog died skit. And the one guy's a foreman, and the other guy comes and he's hanging his head, he's got his head down. And I just get volunteers to do this and I coach him a little, and it ever it works every time. And the guy, the guy who comes with his head down, um, his dog has died. So the foreman says, How you doing, Joe? Not good, my dog died. Scene one is no empathy, old school, right? Tough luck, Joe. Get your butt out there. We gotta work. It's just a dog. Yeah, it's not your child. Get a, you know, grow a pear, get out there. Scene two, he's supposed to show empathy, and this is very common what happens. He's like, How are you doing? Bad, my dog died. Oh, sorry to hear it. Why don't you take the day off? No, no, no. No, no, no. One guy said, Why don't you take two weeks off? And I said, His dog died, his wife didn't die. Right, right. No, what are you gonna say? And then we got to negotiate. And and the some of these guys, they just need the language, Mark. They don't know. Now, some do, but more than half, more than three quarters don't know. You're supposed to say, I'm so sorry your dog died. What kind of dog was it? Was he sick a long time? Right. The questions you ask if someone in the family dies. Yep. For some of these guys, maybe who don't have a wife or kids, the dog is their whole family. Yeah.

unknown 28:23

Yeah.

Tom Esch 28:23

And if they hunt with the dog, it's even a more intimate relationship. Like this is a special friend who has died. Right. But they don't get two weeks off. Now, maybe if they're that distraught that they can't think straight, they shouldn't run the backhoe. Right. Or they shouldn't be running the big plow down Main Street. Maybe they do something safer that day, or maybe you give them an hour or two off. You negotiate. Yeah. How are you doing? How's your wife doing? Are your kids upset? Oh, my kids can't even go to school. They're so upset. Well, then maybe you negotiate something, but it but you need workers. You need you to work, Mark. And that's super fun for me to coach guys through how to do that. I enjoy that every time.

Marc Culver 29:05

Well, I think that's just such a like empathy is a word we just don't talk enough about in general. Um, so I think it's great that you're bringing that up in these in these groups and you're talking about it and you're getting people to think about it, you're giving them the words.

Tom Esch 29:22

Um well, it builds trust, yeah, frankly. Yeah, it isn't just because you want to be nice, yeah, or it's because if you show empathy in the right moment in the right dose, you build a relationship, you build trust. And when there's trust, work happens more efficiently. Yeah, and work happens more safely when there's a good relationship and trust. That's why one reason you show empathy. Besides, it's just a human good thing to do, it's actually a productivity thing to do. Right.

Marc Culver 29:51

I wanna I wanna ask one more thing, and then I want to dive into a little bit more about what culture is and how do you how do we teach our guys what culture is? But and maybe it's all of these pieces just together, but um you know, we we've we've kind of talked about empathy, but how do you train these guys? And again, a little bit more on that, on some of it, some of this is empathy, but how do you train these guys to hold each other accountable? You know, not and and maybe they are all at the same level, so there's no rank there, you know, but you're you're out on the job site and you see your your co-worker doing something wrong. How do you how do you train these guys to like approach the other person and hold them accountable without again being the ASS, you know?

Tom Esch 30:41

Um sure. Well, I think all this stuff starts at the top, Mark. Yeah, there aren't leaders like you who are are leading strongly and leading with really good human values, including care for people, including empathy. It's nearly impossible to create that. But if you have that at the top, and people know that that caring for each other and looking out for each other and holding each other accountable is part of our culture, and that that'll be growth for some people to get to that, and you can move towards that, then you you just you train people on on how to go about having that conversation. And you acknowledge that people are at different places with comfort level approaching another person. Like I said, some of these guys get into this business because they they don't want to talk to anyone, and they want to just be left alone. Yep, and they're very uneasy, they're introverted and they don't like speaking up, let alone correcting somebody or interrupting somebody. You know, it's a natural human fear that if you if you say the wrong thing, you could get in trouble with another person. And if that escalates, it can become a big problem. And if it escalates even further, it can get physical. And in the world of men and testosterone and young men, we know what can happen. And it has happened, and we know it. So we we are rightfully a little concerned and careful, and and you need to train for that. You need to understand how our brains work, and that's always a part of my training. How do our brains are hyper alert for threats? So if you do approach someone, you have to, especially if you have higher rank, yeah, you have to do it carefully. If you have lower rank, you still should do it respectfully. But the higher rank person isn't gonna be real afraid. If the newest guy on the job site goes and says to him, excuse me, sir, with all due respect, I think there's a better way to do that. He's gonna he might laugh at him if he doesn't have my training. Um, if he has my training and takes it, he'll say, Wow, your first day on the job and you're correcting the boss. You're a courageous man. Yeah. I'm curious about you and your family. And tell me more about how that, you know, if that has the time and if it's legitimate, maybe he's super knowledgeable about how to how to clean a box culvert and the and he's got a new idea. You don't know, it's a possibility. So, yeah, the whole world of the relationship and emotional intelligence, it's tricky. I think it's a matter of having the top people, as I said, on board, yep, and then training people for how to do it and setting the expectations and and and not forgetting that we all have to hold ourselves accountable. And if the leaders can model humility, and if the leaders can model eating their own crow and owning that they're not perfect, admitting mistakes. Because a lot of us uh and a lot of people everywhere, but I think especially construction, when we make mistakes, we go right into shame and we go right into second grade or kindergarten with some of this stuff. Honestly, it just goes back to our childhood and we feel we've done something bad and we're bad. The leaders have to model you can make mistakes and not go into a shame spiral and just say, I made a mistake. It was a serious one, I'm sorry about it. Here's why I did it, and here's what I'm gonna do to correct that. That's what we need, how we need people to start talking. And when the culture starts talking like that, it's easier then for a coworker, if he's at the same level or she's at the same level, to go and say, Hey, could we have a conversation about that? But that's hard, and that still doesn't happen all that often, Mark. As much training and coaching as I do. I think I can say it doesn't happen all that often, even in the best cultures. Yeah, but it but it does happen more when there's good training and good modeling.

Making Culture Matter To Crews

Tom Esch 34:30

It's happening more.

Marc Culver 34:32

So we keep talking about culture, yeah. I think you and I get it, and we all we also understand, and I like you keep saying, and and I've finally learned, you know, that culture does it really does start from the top, but we also need it to uh grow from the bottom up too. Yeah, but in your experience, like how do maintenance and construction personnel think of culture? Like when they think of culture, when somebody throws that word out, I I kind of feel like they're a lot of them are rolling their eyes in that way. Yeah, what does that mean to them? You know, and and and how do we change that?

Tom Esch 35:08

Well, if you don't connect how that word connects with their self-interest, it means nothing to most of them because they will roll their eyes. And if there isn't a culture of trust, if the culture is unhappy and what people call toxic, uh, it's gonna be hard to sell them on that or persuade it. But if, but if, but if if there's been enough good leadership that they know the leaders mean well, you still have to connect the dots. All right, we're gonna have a seminar on culture next week, guys. Here's why it's important, and here's how it relates to you. It's gonna, it's gonna create a safer job environment for you. It's gonna the work we're gonna be doing is gonna make it easier for you to have less troubles in your job, to have less conflict with your coworkers. Is that interesting to you? Less drama. You know, I I frequently hear, I can't believe how much drama. I hear women more than once, more than once say, these men are like a bunch of women. I can't believe how dramatic and catty they are. And I hate to say that, Mark, because it's not true everywhere, but it's true in a plenty of cities where I've worked. Where the and I don't know if it's pe if people aren't busy enough or if it's just human nature. I think it's a combination of both of those kinds of things that where they they can get catty and they can get a little dramatic and and get all that, but you you have to connect it to their self-interest, have to have enough trust that they believe something will happen, and then acknowledge a certain percent, 10 to 15, maybe 20 percent, are never really gonna buy it. And the and they're the guys who tend to have low self-esteem, they're the guys who tend to be very negative, they they're the guys that you wish would find another place to work, frankly. And some of them do when people enter a full-blown culture change process. This is very common. I've seen this happen numerous times. People who don't fit that culture, if they see the leaders are seriously going that way and they're gonna avoid the iceberg and not hit the iceberg, they're like, uh, I don't want to do that. Right. I don't want to go to a training, I don't want to have a crucial conversation ever. I'm out. I don't want to have to be positive and talk to people. I'm out, and they will go. And the leaders are like, have a nice day. I hope it goes well for you. Yeah, we're glad. You know, I uh they're glad they're gone.

Marc Culver 37:38

Yeah, and and uh um Mary and Woodbury um Mary Van Milligan, thank you, Mary Van Milligan, um in my cohort group right now was in my cohort group with you with you, and I want to end talking about the cohort groups, by the way. But um she I was talking about something and and she mentioned something that one of her HR people said, and it was you have to make it uncomfortable, you know. If you have a problem employee, and you know, that it's not a problematic enough for you to write them up and you know get rid of them through through that, you just have to make it really uncomfortable for them to work there, you know? And and that that kind of hit me. And it's not to say that like you just like intentionally give them really horrible jobs that aren't in their job description, it's just you really you have them do the things you know they don't want to do that are a part of their job, yeah, you know, and and you make it you make it uncomfortable for them to be there and they will leave eventually. Um and and that that kind of hit me, and I I like that that thing now obviously if there's a real serious problem, you have to be more proactive than that. Yeah, um, but I do think from that culture perspective where you get those people that you just know aren't gonna fit in the culture, and part of that is they're gonna feel more isolated, they're gonna start to separate themselves more from their group and eventually,

Designing A Safety Training Process

Marc Culver 39:10

you know, hopefully they do they do get that that message. But um a couple of things, you know, we we are you and I are working towards a uh 90-minute all department training coming up in for brook for Brooklyn Park Public Works in August. Um and one of the things that I'm trying to do in my organization is establish that culture, you know, a positive culture, a um a supportive culture, a culture of of um you know accountability, um but also an uh you know a culture where we you know care for each other and we're doing a good job and and things. And part of that, a very important part of that is safety. You know, so we're gonna we're gonna have a a 90-minute session, but talk about I was really impressed with some of the pieces that you want to do prior to that 90-minute training. And and I'm I think that those steps are gonna be really effective in the ultimate um goal of this, the ultimate um outcome. But talk about those pieces. Sure.

Tom Esch 40:18

Well, I always do my best to get clarity on the purpose for the event. Yeah. So and and people will say safety, but safety is one of those giant words like culture. What do we really want to, where do we want to make an impact? And where where is the pressure point and the right place to insert uh this training in the culture that's here already? Because you already have a culture, it's been set, and you've walked into a culture that's been here for decades, right? You are not going to dramatically change this in the first year. No, no, no, no, it's pretty strong. You can you can move the Titanic two degrees, three degrees, and that might be enough to miss the iceberg. But I'd say uh there's usually five parts to a training like this in my mind. The the first is getting real clarity from the leaders. What do you want to achieve? The second is a survey andor interviews with the people. What's happening here? And I have a 10 question survey around safety. Okay. Like how often, and I know we're gonna have office and field people, but it's aimed at the field people more because there's much more safety issues in the field.

Marc Culver 41:23

But sometimes the office people see things that the field people won't admit.

Tom Esch 41:27

They do, and then they can interact with the field people and they can support what we're doing. But we ask questions like how often does your crew do a safety analysis, a hazard analysis, a JHA or a JSA every day, every week, every month, almost never. You know, we ask questions like that. That's because that's a basic. How often are you talking about the hazards? And then we talk about um how likely are you to interrupt somebody that you notice taking a safety shortcut or doing something actually quite dangerous? Very unlikely, you know, somewhat unlikely, likely, very like, you know, where are you on that spectrum? So we get so we collect some data in that survey, and then I integrate that into the program. I just pluck out a couple of the either the best ones. I try to pick one or two and say, hey, you guys are doing well. Hey, 85% of you said you do a JHA every day. That's above the norm. Nice job. You know, uh 90% of you said you would have a crucial conversation with a coworker if they did something that really bothered you. Kudos to you. Yep. And then I get to one or two, like, well, guys are, I think, are a little bit below the bar on this one. You know, how how often uh has somebody sat down with you to give you feedback on your communication style? That's something that's often low because that isn't a value and it isn't done very commonly, where foremen especially are people who somebody should be sitting down with a foreman at least once a month and giving them some feedback, if not once a quarter at least, um, to give them some feedback on how what, you know, it's just like developing your leadership, right? How often does that happen? So I integrate that into the program, then I deliver the program, then we evaluate the program. That's part four. Like what it what was your favorite part? What was your least favorite part? What could we do more something next time? And then there's a the fifth part is a consult with the leaders, you and if you want to include some others around here that are key leaders. What did we learn? What went well? What could have gone better? What else needs to be done in light of what we learned about about the culture here and about safety? Did we get some insights that are new? Do we see some places where we need to put some real effort uh going forward? So it's a even though it's only a 90 minute thing, it's you know, it's usually like a two month process of doing it. Right. And potentially very powerful, some insights. Sometimes people don't know. And you're you're still fairly new here, Mark. Yeah. You might get a lot of insight into what's really going on.

Marc Culver 44:10

I fully expect it. Yeah.

Tom Esch 44:11

Yeah. Like, wow, I didn't know that. Or wow. And the safety directors sometimes will even say, Man, I thought I knew that, but I didn't know that. And then and then sometimes it's things they weren't even thinking about. Like eventually we'll talk a little bit about rank and power. Yep. And that's something people don't. To me, that's actually a safety hazard, Mark. If people aren't somewhat knowledgeable about rank and power and using their rank well, that's a potential safety hazard. And it never comes up on the JHA. People never consider seniority, is what it's called in the construct in the public works. But it is if the person with seniority is has too much old school in them and is not approachable, then people will not interrupt them. They will not approach them. And they can change the job plan. And this has happened, Mark, and I know plenty of stories of injuries and in some cases deaths that have happened. When the superintendent changes the safety plan, and it's in my book about a it was a 30-foot deep trench. The soup changed the plan, and nobody corrected him, nobody spoke up. And they didn't feel safe speaking up to him. Right. And a young and a man was killed in a trenching, a trench collapse incident. And I would say that was a that was a rank or seniority hazard that was never covered and never talked about. So those are the different parts of the program.

Marc Culver 45:42

I definitely hope you you have that conversation with my staff. I mean, that's one thing that um I want to make sure that my my employees are empowered to first of all, I want them, I want, I want them to be empowered to ask questions and and bring up new ideas and things like that, whether it's with their field supervisor or even to me. I want them to have that, but certainly, absolutely, I want to empower them to say, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's the safe way to do this. We need we need to stop. We need to re-revisit

Why People Do Not Stop Work

Marc Culver 46:20

this.

Tom Esch 46:21

Yep. And every leader wants that. Yep. And and some leaders think just saying that is enough, and it's not enough. Even safety leaders will say, Oh, I tell them all the time, guys, speak up, speak up. Oh, I say, everybody has a red card. You can shut the job down. I say, how often have they shut the job down? Oh, well, we haven't done it yet, but everybody has a red card. They've all been through the training. But how often have they shut the job down in the last three years? Well, no one shut their job down, but they all could. BS. Yeah. BS. But they don't really feel empowered. They don't feel there's enough trust. The culture doesn't have enough trust and practice, frankly, at how to shut a job down or how to speak up. Um, but I still think leaders should say it, Mark, but the leaders should even be more focused on if I say it, will it stick? And how will you know if it sticks? Because this is another thing. Leaders don't always get told the full truth. As a leader, you have to really ferret out the truth of what's happening. Yeah. You can't just say, hey guys, give me some feed. Oh, you're doing great, Mark. It's all going great. Look, how's the safety culture, guys? Oh, it's going great, Mark. It's going great. You gotta say, tell me where it's not going great. Yeah. I want some corrective feedback. Yeah. Not to not to all 80 who show up in August, but to your two or three most trusted people. I need some honest feedback. I need some corrective feedback. I know I didn't hit that one quite right. Help me see my and that takes courage and that takes trust, right? And uh those are good notes.

Marc Culver 47:56

I'm really, I'm really looking forward to this, to this training. Good. Um good. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how the group responds. And you know, and and there will be follow-up uh needs, and and we're gonna talk about that too, you know, once, once we do the the whole group exercise, what do we do at the division levels and things like that in order to follow up with the messaging and make sure that we we we carry it forward, you know?

Tom Esch 48:23

Yes, because because these little workshops aren't enough, which you and I have talked about. You either need to reinforce it on your own or do more or do some very targeted coaching. I really believe in training and coaching and then reinforcement in your culture. You don't need to bring me in every month, but bring

Reinforcement Through Coaching And Mentors

Tom Esch 48:40

me in enough where you get the common language or whoever you bring in, and then reinforce it. Get people to use the ideas, use the language, and then some targeted coaching, I find, or mentoring, you may call it mentoring. And you could, I don't know if you already have a mentor program here or not, but set up kind of a, you know, and it doesn't have to be everybody, but maybe you just say these two foreman or soups are really skilled at mentoring. We're gonna have these two guys next year each take on one guy that they're gonna mentor. And it's the beginning of uh our mentorship Brooklyn Park program, and we're gonna be growing growing leaders internally, you know. And uh those are the ones you'd want the coaching to go to, Mark, you know, those two that are mentoring others because uh because that can be hard. It can be hard to do to get the time for it and to know what it even means.

Marc Culver 49:35

That's not a necessarily an easy program to implement, but I do I do like that idea. So talking about Mandarin, talking about um coaching and some things like that. Um I know I've had I've I've had the privilege of being in a in a cohort group led by you. I've also been in some other cohort groups prior to this that I have found truly valuable. Um Don Silverda's uh leadership group, um, which is a which is a mix of of uh professions within within government, but it was still really well, it wasn't always the most up-to-date uh program.

Tom Esch 50:16

Don't a great guy. I've known Don since 1973 when he was working with my dad. Story I'll tell you at different time. But then the year the that was the year I was born, by the way.

Marc Culver 50:27

Um but okay. Uh whenever I'm feeling old, Tom, I'm just gonna come, I'm gonna call you up and tell. Tell me about when you met Don Silverday.

Tom Esch 50:39

11, but I did meet him.

Marc Culver 50:41

My dad was hanging out with him in the and he was a he was a county commissioner at the time, right? Yep, yeah.

Tom Esch 50:45

He was. Yeah, yes, he was.

Marc Culver 50:47

But but I mean, I've always found value in that. Again, even if the the the program wasn't maybe most the most up to date or what have you, it got me thinking about leadership and it it got me asking questions about myself, about how I do things and and such. And and your program, I what I loved about yours is it is more focused within public works, it's colleagues uh in the industry, and it's a safe place where we can talk about issues that we are facing with each other. We know it's gonna stay in the room, um, and we can help um each other with those moments, you know, um, lean on the experiences of of the others in the room. Talk to me about how you got that going and and how that's going and and the that value of those cohort groups. Sure.

Tom Esch 51:34

Well, uh, there's a guy named Jim Lynn. You may have heard of Jim Lynn. He's a brother of Mike Lynn The Vikings. Okay, okay. Jim's the brother, uh, and has become a very good friend of mine and mentor. And he worked with Craig Rapp to start the city manager groups many years ago. And I heard about that, and then I know some other people. I I know Don Salverta had these groups, and I know a guy named Mike Erickson who was part of some of these groups. And I just started thinking, I think there's a need there. So I just I just started calling up people and stopping by, public

Cohort Groups And Peer Support

Tom Esch 52:10

works departments, saying, Hey, is this an interest? And it was an interest, and we easily got together a group. You the group you were in, I think had 12. It was not that hard to form. I just said, hey, we're gonna meet once a month for a couple, two, three hours uh in different cities, and it just that one happened pretty automatically, which told me there's a real need for public works directors to come to that safe place, learn from each other, support each other. And then I do little bits of training, and I've been doing a little bit more training. I just do little 20-minute modules most of the time where I listen to what they're wrestling with, and then I design a training that's connected to what I hear them talking about, whether it's personnel stuff, whether it's personal development stuff, whether it's awareness of their rank stuff, um, and uh whether it's how to use body language more skillfully. I can tell just by watching them how skillful they are at communicating. And sometimes they're they're not bringing their full self to the table, and they need a little help with their confidence and with their presentation and and how they communicate. So, yeah, that's how I started them and um got another one. I'm gonna be starting, uh adding a few new people to the current cohort in August. So that's something I'm putting out there now.

Marc Culver 53:29

Yeah, well, I guess I'll throw out for those of you in Minnesota that are listening to this. And if this is something that's interests you and you're in the public works world, reach out to Tom.

Tom Esch 53:38

Um only three spots though, Mark.

Marc Culver 53:40

Only three spots remaining.

Tom Esch 53:42

Yeah, but only no more than 12 because I don't want more than Jesus had. It's a good, that's a good bar. It's a good standard.

Marc Culver 53:50

That's right. Um, and I would just say to to anybody that's listening to this podcast right now, if you're in the public works world, I don't care what level you you are, if you're a you know a maintenance worker, if you're an engineer, if you're a technician, if you're a um a public works director, um there is value in talking with your colleagues. Um, and and I think we see professional associations providing that link in a lot of times. So that I've you've if you've listened to my other podcasts, you've heard me talk about professional associations and how valuable those are for advancing your knowledge in your profession, but also for making those connections. You're you know, meeting those people in your peer groups, your other colleagues, and learning from their experiences as well. But I really encourage you to, if if you don't have somebody like Tom Esh that that can bring that group together and moderate it where you are, um, I encourage you to kind of create your own. Just have have a breakfast with a few of your colleagues once uh once every other month or something and have those conversations. Um, you know, just talk about the the challenges that you're dealing with and and um ask people, you know, have you doubted to deal with this before? What do you think? Um, but also share your experiences um with your colleagues as well. And I I think that goes so far in making us better leaders, in a lot of cases, helping us with that empathy. We can be empathetic with each other, but it also we can hear the stories and we can learn from those experiences, and we can then grow some empathy in those situations for the the the those situations when they happen in our organizations. Um, so in any event, if you're listening to this, I really encourage you to to to try to do that. Find that, find your people, find your group, find your cohorts, and uh and form that relationship. So anything else you want to mention today, Tom? We this has been great. We've we've talked longer than I expected.

Tom Esch 55:50

Great, not much rather than go twins. Go twins. Mark's got a bunch of bobbleheads here.

Marc Culver 55:54

You can see he's a bit going to Buffer twins game this season on Sunday. So now that college baseball is done, my my son's done playing college baseball. We can yeah, we can shift focus to the twins that are outperforming our expectations from this year, which were very, very, very low. But uh um, but it's still fun to watch us. So so thank you.

Tom Esch 56:14

You're welcome. Thank you, Mark, for your work. And I look forward to just watching what you develop here in Brooklyn Park, and I'm honored to be a small part of it. And I'm very hopeful that uh good

Season Four Wrap And LinkedIn Ask

Tom Esch 56:25

things are gonna keep happening here.

Marc Culver 56:26

Well, thank you. Thank you. And I certainly very much appreciate your uh you as a resource for helping me do that work. So thank you. All right, everybody, thanks again for listening. Um, one last thing before we go. Uh, this is our fourth season. I think this is gonna be episode one of our fourth season of the podcast. We'd love to grow our audience, uh, our audience. So please help us spread the word by uh we're gonna be mostly on we're mostly on LinkedIn, which is where Tom is too, is on LinkedIn. Yes, you can find him there. He's got some great videos on LinkedIn, by the way. Um, but help us spread the word by liking, reposting, or commenting on our LinkedIn posts. And uh and let us know what you think of this episode and all the other episodes of the podcast. And if you if you've got an idea for an episode, let me know. We love episode ideas. Um, but thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Nerds out.