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American Public Works Association Update with CEO Scott Grayson
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In this episode we talk with Scott Grayson, CEO of the American Public Works Association (APWA). Scott talks about the new strategic directions for APWA, value to public works professionals, and some challenges to the industry such as workforce and DEI initiatives. We also talk about the value of Accreditation, which is offered by APWA for public works organizations of all types.
Additional Resources:
American Public Works Association - Serving Professionals in Public Works (apwa.org)
Accreditation - American Public Works Association (apwa.org)
www.apwa.org/resources/accreditation
PWX Conference - American Public Works Association (apwa.org)
www.apwa.org/events/pwx-conference/
APWA Membership Growth and Public Works
Mike SpackWelcome to the Public Works Nerds podcast with Mark and Mike .
Marc CulverWelcome to the Public Works Nerds podcast . I'm Marc Culver an d I'm Mike Spack . We're your co-hosts Today . We're talking about what's happening at the American Public Works Association and we're here with its CEO , scott Grayson . Welcome , scott , thanks very much . Thanks for joining us . Scott's been with APWA for over seven years now . Scott , you've got a pretty good understanding of what Public Works is , given your time with the City of Golden Valley as a council member in the early 2000s , and so I think that's great . I think that's wonderful that you are now leading up APWA , having that experience and you know , probably you didn't think you would be doing this when you were a council member . I never did why don't you talk a little bit about yourself , how you got here and how that experience as a council member kind of you know , informed or you know made this job I don't know easier for you or more passionate for you ?
Scott Graysonyou know , great question . So in about 2002 , I decided I wanted to run for council in Golden Valley and part of it was I loved it there , but there was no true community . We had nice infrastructure , great parks , but we had multiple school districts and private schools , and so I ran on a platform of building and creating community . I wanted to have an art and music festival and a parade and fireworks , and so that's why I ran . A lot of other people run on one issue and I didn't have any one issue and , of course , when I won I didn't exactly know what I was getting myself into .
Scott GraysonIt was actually a great experience . It was like a graduate program how much you learn so quickly , and every week they deliver a packet , you know , a huge packet that you have to read from and read it , and I actually read it . I spent my week and even though I had young kids , and not only did I read it , there were lots of maps in there and I like maps , but I had to go out and walk properties so I could really , you know , understand it , and so I spent four years there . And then our public works director I remain friendly with and we were having lunch some years later , Janine Clancy is the name .
Marc CulverYes , exactly right , she's very large in our public works community here in Minnesota . Well , the not out to Janine .
Scott GraysonExactly . And well , I'll share news in a moment about her . But so we were having lunch and at that time I worked for another professional technical nonprofit called IEEE and that's made up largely of electrical engineers , physicists , whole host of technologies . And she said you know , with your nonprofit background and knowledge of municipal government , I know of an opening for the executive director role of APWA . And she had brought me as a council member to a local chapter meeting when I was on there to learn more about it . Like , yeah , I think I've heard of APWA and that's and the rest is history . Yeah , yeah , that's great .
Marc CulverAnd you're enjoying your role there . I presume it's great . Seven years , yeah . So yeah , maybe just kind of talk a little bit about you know , for the public works nerds out there and hopefully , if you're listening to this podcast and you are a true public works nerd , you are a member of APWA . And if you're not , go to APWA , become a member , join immediately and , scott , tell us about APWA . And if they're not a member , why should they be a member ?
Scott GraysonYeah , and I will say I am a nerd now too . My wife and I were over in Spain and I got really mesmerized by the sewer covers .
Mike SpackNo , no , man , they're not called man .
Scott GraysonThey were just beautiful , and we kind of lost each other because I got stopped in an alleyway looking at them and I said what happened to you ? I said , well , I just had a look at it . So wherever I am now , I look at infrastructure . Apwa is about 86 years old . It actually grew out of the Chicago World's Fair in 1893 , though , and the group of municipal engineers set up shop across the street from where they were having the World Expo , and they wanted to show the world that we had roads and running water and power , and so they created a group there that morphed in and merged with one other group as well , and then , in 1937 , apwa actually started . It's grown over the years .
Scott GraysonI get a little impatient . I think we should be a lot larger than we are , not because we want revenue or more people . It's just that we offer so many great products and services that that is a shame more people are not part of it . But I will say this morning , before I was over here , I learned that we have hit a new record of 32,020 . And growing and growing , and so that is exciting , and it's really more about anyone who works in public works , and infrastructure should be part of our family .
Mike Spackactually Do you have a sense in your numbers ? What percentage of cities and counties in the country are in APWA versus not in APWA ?
Scott GraysonYeah , well , what I would say is that 89% of our membership are public agencies , and so it's a mix of private engineering firms , individuals , but the largest amount of our membership and the way we're actually structured is based on a city's population or county . We say , based on your population , you should roster X amount of people , and so what we're seeing during the last three years , though so say that there's a population of 100,000 . And we say you should have 12 people on your roster Most of these agencies are signing up more than that . They are seeing a lot of value , I think .
Mike SpackDid you see a dip in membership through the pandemic and then are starting to climb up , or has this been steady growth over the 30,000 members ?
Scott GraysonYeah . So just before the pandemic hit , we were on a growth path , and then we lost some . We were really concerned . We lose a lot . All of the newspapers and economists were saying that state and local government would not recover for 20 years . I wasn't sure that would be the case , but the week that it was announced that the World Health Organization had declared a world pandemic , we lost a few big cities instantly , and so we were concerned . But we said look , let's keep everyone we can , let's provide as much value , let's provide online education , let's be here for them so that when it ends they'll know that they were part of this family . And so , once it hasn't quite ended yet , but we're out of the woods at least .
Marc CulverI'm just going to declare the pandemic is over . I don't know .
Scott GraysonI think they said it's over , but it's still with us . Yeah , it's not quite a pandemic , but it's a hit of a pandemic , not pandemic . Whatever it is . Wash your hands right and sing happy birthday . So what happened was we really spent two years being reactive which isn't a lot of fun , you know to keep the organization afloat and no one really knew what would happen . But we all work long hours and everyone likes using the word hivited . We changed up a lot of stuff . I mean , obviously , everybody went remote and we work remotely . A year we created an incredible online education . Some of you nerds out there know that we have a PWX , which is our big annual meeting in expo . We weren't able to have it in person , so we brought it all online and created PWX at home , and so we tackled a new technical area each month and we really focused that month on providing education around each area and that was great and people liked it and they maybe had some time in their heads at home to log in and hear things .
Mike SpackHow is registration going for PWX coming up in August ? Because I know through the pandemic conferences , trade shows , everything shut down and then kind of slow to reboot back up . But have you rebounded ?
Scott GraysonThe answer is yes , and I speak with a lot of peers who run other associations and they're not back yet . Week one , when they stated the pandemic was here March week of March 9th 2020 , we were planning to have our North American Snow Conference . Three weeks later and the governor of Ohio declared a state of emergency and said okay , no gatherings of a hundred people or more . Now we hear that like , okay , I understand that , but I just couldn't even wrap my head around that . What does that mean ? We're gonna have 5,000 people , but you can't have a hundred . Guess , we can't hold that meeting .
Scott GraysonAnd so we canceled that meeting . And then we canceled PWX that we would have held in New Orleans at the convention center that was actually being used as an overflow hospital . And then we canceled one more North American Snow Conference that we were planning on having in Grand Rapids , Michigan , and then , finally , in St Louis . We were able to have it and we budgeted for about 75% of a normal year and we hit that . And then last year we kind of stuck with that as well and we exceeded that , and this year we're tracking to have the most people and exhibitors ever .
Mike SpackYeah , yeah , that's fantastic . It's very exciting . Congratulations , and it makes sense to me that our industry is gonna rebound faster , just because walking the floor at PWX is just amazing . And the energy there , right the energy , all the equipment , the vendors and , just as an industry , we wanna see and touch this equipment Yep .
Scott GraysonNo , that's exactly right , and most of our people have been out on the front line from when it started . So being around people again , what was not uncomfortable or new to a lot of them . A lot of groups went when they started meeting in person , would issue red bracelets , yellow bracelets and green ones . Red men stay away , don't shake my hand , don't come near me . Yellow's like well , you know , if you want elbow bump , okay , and green is , bring it in and give me a hug . And we didn't issue that . But there was a lot of hugging going on .
Marc CulverThat's great . So , outside of like you know , your large events and some of your online courses and that and I think you know you kind of talk through that and I was gonna say that sometimes you mentioned the fact that you were reacting for two years and I was gonna make a comment that you know , sometimes that's where the best innovation comes out , though . It's great because you have to do something versus trying to be proactive and build something , and I think you guys have done a really good job with building a lot of those online resources and trainings and that . So I think that was a good thing , and we've seen that in so many industries thanks to the pandemic . But outside of that , what do you consider APWA's primary role or primary roles , roles ?
Scott Graysonyeah , yeah , well , you know it is to support people who work in public works and infrastructure , and that's through education , as we're speaking about . It's through that membership in chapters , creating experiences for people , networking both on the private and public side . And then advocacy . We have a robust advocacy office in PC and we lobby on basically all issues public works and infrastructure .
Marc CulverAnd how's the advocacy role going ? I was gonna say experiment but it's not really experiment . But I mean , how is that ? I know in Minnesota here I chair the legislative committee for the CD Engineers Association , which is a different group , but we're working very closely with our APWA members as well . Most of us that are in CD Engineers or APWA members as well
Advocacy and International Expansion
Marc Culver. But and it can be really frustrating trying to do that advocacy as a logical engineers Right right . So I mean just kind of touch on your guys' experience with advocacy , how you manage that and where maybe it's working for you , when you've seen some successes and where you haven't .
Scott GraysonSure , and that is a great point . For engineers , the whole world of advocacy is challenging . As I said , I had worked with electrical engineers . Now I work predominantly with the Sibyls . Engineering can be black and white and the world of advocacy lobbying can be very gray .
Scott GraysonBut when I started here we already had great staff in our DC office , and so I work with our director there to really create a solid structure and what that looked like previously . We had a lot of technical committees water , transportation , emergency management , snow and ice removal and they were being charged with writing policy statements . But their expertise was truly in the technical world , not necessarily as knowledgeable in the advocacy world . So we have a government affairs group that actually writes our policy statements , and right now we have three in those areas basically transportation , water and then emergency management .
Scott GraysonAs our nerds out there know , we're first responders yes , first one's in , last one's out , and so the reason we've crafted those policy statements is that when our staff , when our volunteer leaders , when our board are interacting and speaking with elected leaders or government policymakers , we speak from those policy statements . We don't stray , and we've been really complimented by Hill staff members of Congress about our statements . They say there's a lot of meat on the bones here it's not fluff and so we've had a lot of impact , so much so that we were invited to the White House signing of the infrastructure bill , which was a great experience , and proud that a HWA is part of the public works and infrastructure policy discussion . So is this .
Mike SpackI'm curious when you took this role and coming into a whole new organization , coming in cold , was it a parent that this advocacy Was a big priority for you , and was it a shift from what you were coming into ? I mean kind of that . How do you develop a plan and how you want to take the organization as its leader ? Yeah , it's a great question .
Scott GraysonSo where , where I had work lasted I triple E and I spent 26 years there . I started out in government relations and so I had years of lobbying experience . We , we did it well there . We , we had , we had a real structure . I'd say , unfortunately , we probably had 140 policy statements and you can't Realistically , you know , and that's old school , the white policy statements you wrote , the better you , you were not not true , and so I see , or quantity over quality , yet Exactly , and so I mean I took my experience , what , what I knew , refined to work with our staff on it , and so I I love the fact that we have a great process now of the government affairs group that we have spent well .
Scott GraysonKeep in mind also Congress . We , we have a new one every other year . So not not that our policy statements will radically change . We , we know what we should be lobbying on , but based on the new Congress , based on who's in the White House , we , we do Change Some language in it , some asks , some , you know , in permission . So I Think that that I'm not sure I expected that that we would be when we are right now with which is truly being recognized as a player in that space , but we , we are now , so I'm happy about that . It's great .
Marc CulverWhere do you see the future of APW ? I mean , we're . Where do you see that the agency has to grow ?
Scott GraysonYeah , yeah . So I Recently created a few new new roles . We have a chief operating officer , we have a chief learning officer , but we also created a new role with which isn't really as common in the Nonprofit world , and that's a chief growth officer . And and it's not , you know , as I Said , it's not just about growing the numbers of members that we we have , it's a lot more . And so we we've always played a role , sort of internationally . We , as , as you know , aim PWA is Canada and you , you acid . It always has been . But we we want to expand abroad and We've been part of a group called IFM main , which is the International Federation of Municipal Engineers , and so but but we haven't really played a large role at .
Scott GraysonThat group is made up of about 19 other countries around the world , of groups like ours , but a lot smaller often , and great sharing of best practices and Technology . And I think some in the United States thought that , you know , if it's not built here , it isn't worth anything . We , we speak often in this world about asset management and Australia's light years ahead of us in the United States . Canada does it fairly well in England , so that that's a very important practice , that that we're learning still from others , as well as snow and ice Removal techniques , as well as water . And then there there's other Countries that we we work with , which we hear stories from and say , boy , do we have a great in the United States .
Scott GraysonAnd we were over in South Africa in in October and I mean it's amazing , there , they , they have a water . I Asked them . I said so , I understand , you have a water shortage . They said no , we have plenty of water . We don't have enough power to power the water up hills , so it's stored in the water tanks . Plenty of water , not enough power . And those are things that we we rarely even think about in the United States .
Mike SpackYeah , so what does Australia do so much better on asset management Are ? These are just more comprehensive .
Scott GraysonIt , it's comprehensive and it's also an expectation of their government . If they're giving federal dollars , they they expect that every city will have an asset management plan in place . Canada , to some extent , has that . The government of Canada some years ago allocated 180 billion over 12 years of in of infrastructure spending and said look , we'll only give it out if you can show me an asset management plan . The hurdle is that the smaller cities and rural Communities , they might have one person they can't make an asset management plan . So they they've funded people and and outside groups . You know it actually helped them create plans . So that you're here truly being good stewards of spending . And we have this once-in-a-lifetime chance in the United States with 1.2 trillion in spending on infrastructure . And so we we ask members of Congress , hillstaff and other policy makers at the agencies you know it might be good if we require or say it's kind of nice if you have an asset management plan , if you want grants , because that that is really assuring your money will be spent properly . So and what was the reaction to that ? I would say Department of transportation was elated . They , they absolutely understand it . They have some programs in place to encourage that .
Scott GraysonWhen we spoke with EPA and their what Water office . They , they were on board , but what ? What I didn't know at that point was and People out there may have heard of SRF , the state revolving fund for water . Every state operates it how they want to , basically , and so so we've started speaking with individual states and saying so . Have you ever thought about requiring or recommending an asset management plan when smaller and rural cities ask for grants ? Your question was how are we expanding ? And , and and it is international reach learning . We've been organizing technical tours for groups outside of the United States , in Canada and the United States as well , so a real you know , building outside relationship , sharing knowledge about our certification programs , our accreditation programs and a lot of excuse me , a lot of other Countries are excited about those , even though we created them in the United States . They're applicable .
Marc CulverDo you have any members outside of you , as we do in Canada ?
Scott GraysonYeah , and and actually that this year , as we speak right now , we'll we'll have it's about 28 people showing up at PwX from outside of the United States . It'll end up being 80 , and that's not Canada either . We'll . We'll have a couple a hundred . Now . It was harder last year due to the restrictions and you know we'll we'll have a lot of people in now good .
Mike SpackI saw on your website that you are going through , as we speak , an effort of rebuilding the website and I assume that's tied in to make this mountain of information you have More accessible , including globally . Can you tell us what we should be expecting on the website ?
Scott GraysonAbsolutely , thanks for asking that question yeah , it's two , two years of my life and my staff's lives . It it's actually way more . I mean , it's exactly like infrastructure . You don't see all of the other stuff . You'll see a website , but we , we've been running an association management
Website Redesign
Scott Graysonsystem . It's it's a large database for 27 years the same kind , and we started seeing that there were some cyber threats , risk of that . It wasn't really able to grow the way we we want to grow is not agile enough . So about two years ago , we started researching Okay , what other association management systems are out there that that will allow us to have online stores and sell educational products , as well as the pretty mugs in the shirts and posters for National Public Works Week , and and that was all stored in the cloud as well , okay , so we , we brought Many of our staff in as stakeholders , we researched it , we chose one , but what what happens is a lot of our website is behind a Firewall where you need username and password , and we also like providing Members certain benefits that the non-member would not have .
Scott GraysonSo when we we are launching this association management system , also known as AMS jargon we , the the , the AMS came with a proprietary software . I know there's nerds out there , so I can speak like this Yep , that that only allowed us to craft and create websites in their software . Well , we want to use WordPress , right , I mean ? Or or something that's more Agile , yeah , so we , we hire an outside firm , a strategy firm , to really rethink and relook at what , what our website would look like . We , we want to be the place that you know has all things public works and infrastructure , and and there's there are strategies around crafting a website so that people come there one . It's a lot less cluttered , a lot more white space . Yeah , and there are actually Psychologists out there that study how people read websites , and so we've studied all of it to create a really great experience for you users , both members and non users .
Scott GraysonSo it will be a cleaner look , it will be easier to find things , and you know I've created a lot of websites over the years and you always get Some . I can't find anything on this new website . Well , there is Google out there too , yeah , and I search most websites that way because I can't spend a lot of time . But having stated that this new Web website , which launches in just about a week , oh , wow , yeah , yeah , yeah . We're Excited , cautiously optimistic , because , with technology , we know it's not perfect . There's gonna be some bumps it . It will be very easy to find things and interactive as well . So not just a website , but a lot of the infrastructure underneath it great .
Marc CulverSo by the time you're listening to this , that website live . That's yeah , and so go check it out . Yeah , hey everyone . I just want to take a quick moment to thank our sponsor , boltman mink , who is producing and editing our podcast .
Bolton & MenkAt bolton and Menk , we believe all people should live in a safe , sustainable and beautiful community . We promise every client two things we'll work hard for you and we'll do a good job . We take a personal interest in the work being done around us and , at the end of the day , we're real people offering real solutions .
Mike SpackWith that , with all this chat , gpt stuff coming out and all the AI and what's behind a firewall and what's scrapable , mmm , what not have . Has that come up yet ? Or is that on the horizon or the board to be thinking about ? Because I mean the advocacy , the education . You certainly , I assume , want to make a lot of the information available to everyone , but we also recognize the benefits of being a member and having Access to , so how are you gonna balance that ? That was a great question .
Scott GraysonSo we we try to stay in eight , nine steps ahead of what's coming our way . You know you will , and I often speak with my staff and say what do you not know that you don't know right ? And so we're constantly thinking about how external factors can impact a PWAs in organization but also its members . And so , as far as GPT , you know the AI world we are looking at we have lots of authors and we write technical books and journals and so we wanna make sure that we have a really good understanding about what's plagiarism , what's not , that we create policies around . Well , recognizing that , you know it might not be the end of the world if somebody writes a paper but consults with an AI software that helps write it , but just as long as the public knows , you know this was written both by AI and a real person and trying to understand what the intellectual property rights are around that .
Scott GraysonAnd then , as far as scraping data , we're not that concerned . You know we want our information out there in public . There are laws that restrict that , so we don't encourage people to violate laws . But you will have spaces as a member that you have your username and password , that only you'll have access . And actually this week , which , if this is aired in a few weeks , you've lost out . But we've opened up our resource library , now free , because we've shut off the access of username and password this week , and so it's open to everyone right now , and that also is people to . Yeah , exactly .
Scott GraysonExactly , and there's a wealth of information , from PDFs to videos , to recorded meetings , a salary calculator ?
Mike SpackThat's not free . That's not free . There's some things that are marked as sellers .
Scott GraysonWell , it's so useful . We started about four years ago and we survey public works agencies and the more responses we have , the more robust the data is , making it stronger . What's nice about it is it's an online interactive calculator , so you don't necessarily need to pour through the report and read it all . You can plug in . I've got eight staff , we handle pavement management and we're in Casper Wyoming how much should we pay ? And they have nine years experience . So I mean it's a great tool , yeah .
Marc CulverYou touched a little bit on this . You said the word accreditation . Talk a little bit about that . Talk a little bit more about what that is for APWA , what your role in that is and what the value of that is to a public agency .
Scott GraysonYeah , well , it's actually one of my more favorite programs that I'm extremely proud of . When I worked at IEEE , I knew what the word meant . We work with an outside agency to accredit engineering schools and it's really focused around creating and ensuring best practices . Our program accredits public agencies and that might be state level , county , city . We've also accredited Los Alamos Labs and you were speaking about growth and we're headed . We know that we have lots of other markets out there because there's public works everywhere , from hospitals and schools and the army navy labs . So it's almost if anyone out there knows what ISO 9000 is . It's quality assurance and a program that we create . But we don't say this is the only way you must accomplish this practice and whether you know anyone new or not , we have over 300 different public works practices out there and so we have a manual and cities , if they enter the process , they start out with running a self-assessment to kind of see where they're at , see whether it's appropriate . It's always appropriate , yeah , it's always appropriate . Spoiler alert .
Scott GraysonExactly , and all we ask is that if you sign up you have to choose nine chapters that have multiple practices in there , and then beyond that , I mean we have a wide range . So we've got airports , some public works departments manage airports and beaches , and that's not applicable in every place . So but what I hear over and over from those who went through it is it was rigorous , it was really challenging , but it was the best experience they've ever had , both for them and their staff . And , as we see , people now finally starting to retire . There will be a large loss of knowledge , and so our accreditation program really helps agencies codify business practices and the knowledge that people who've worked their years and years have had but maybe never wrote it down anywhere and once they leave they won't have it anymore . So we wanna grow that program . We believe every agency lab , city , state , county should have that .
Mike SpackSo your accredited Help me understand . It's basically city comes to APWA , you have all these modules . You say okay , I'm gonna pick these nine , 10 , 12 modules , we're gonna document our procedures process on all these modules and basically put together a binder of our best practices that's exactly right and then turn it in to APWA . You flip through it and say pass , fail .
Scott GraysonYou hear it right , we have very , very skilled and experienced evaluators that go out there to each agency and work with them along the way at different checkpoints , and we provide a few years to work through the process . Most are about a year and a half . I mean it's doable in a year a year and a half depending upon how many staff you have .
Mike SpackOkay , so you're sending out facilitators , almost consultants , to help you through this . Well , there it is .
Scott GraysonThe evaluators can help them write it , but they can help provide input when asked and then ultimately , once they're out there for the final evaluation , they say fail , pass . Now , it isn't ever . Well , it's rarely ever . You fail because there are , to your point , checkpoints . Who has failed ? Well , come on it's not the beans . Who's failed ? I don't know of anybody , but they may say look , this practice you wrote about needs more work before we can ultimately credit you . Okay .
Scott GraysonWhat's the typical timeframe costs around the program look like so it varies as well by population , and I definitely I don't have the price list in my head based on population , but anyone out there who's excited , you can call me because I'm passionate about it . But we have great staff that administer the program , but it's not that expensive . The hurdle for most cities is allocating staff resources versus how much the program costs . But even those groups that were well , I don't have enough staff , I don't know and they sign up and do it . They said why was I ever worried ? It's the most important thing we've ever done here .
Mike SpackAnd I come from public sector . I've been running a tech company here for 15 years and getting those I mean , it's not McDonald's level . Here's how you do the process . No , at least thinking through and documenting what we do and what we don't do and how we think about the general principles helps everyone be better at their job . So , yes , it's a body of work , but when you're , my experience , when we're on the other side of coming up with standard operating procedures , was what we were doing got so much better and more efficient than focusing on the right way and the right things is just as important . I assume you have great testimonials coming out .
Scott GraysonYou want us job and you want us job , you stand extremely well . Yeah , that is it , and the beauty of it is , as I said , we don't ram anything down anyone's throat . You know your own business practices better than anyone else would , but create the framework around it so that you can transfer that knowledge in each of those areas .
Mike SpackYeah , and I think about . We interviewed Russ and John from the city of Egan and they're both gonna end up retiring about the same time . They're 30 years into their career at the city . Like what kind of vacuum is left on ? They walk out the door , so let's see .
Scott GraysonEgan , should they be a critic , right ?
Marc CulverI think you know Russ , yeah , exactly .
Scott GraysonBut actually I mean , if I may . So I was having a dinner with the Public Works director , LA County , and I said you know , you really should become accredited . And he said well , the Public Works director in Houston has been on me also . Okay , I will . So even now the larger cities are signing up and they see the value of it . You know , it's spreading .
Marc CulverYeah , Well , we would and Mike and I have talked about this before . As this podcast continues , hopefully we would love if there's an agency out there that's considering going through the accreditation process through APWA and you're interested in helping us learn about it . Yeah , we would love to just kind of follow you through that . We would love to interview you before you start it and then maybe interview you a couple of points , you know , a couple of times within that process and certainly at the end , and just kind of , you know , get your input as to how the process is going , what you're learning , and then , obviously at the end , when you've gotten through it , you know the pros and the cons of it , Right , but we would love to do that . Yeah , to do a series .
Mike SpackYeah , have that case study series of community going through the process , because that at least through my career I've learned so much from kind of on the sidelines tagging along people going through a journey like that .
Scott GraysonYeah , yeah , no , absolutely great .
Mike SpackYeah .
Scott GraysonIt's fun and I'm sure any of the agencies out there that you know are starting the process have experienced it . And the other part of it is most agencies reaccredit . Yeah , I was gonna ask that question Every three years . Every three years , okay , you know , and we wanna make sure that that's a meaningful experience . We've had feedback that says , you know , we don't want the same old , same old . So you know it's trying to push that envelope so that there is an experience of continuous improvement for the agency that re-appredits , and we also like sharing best practices of the accreditation process . So other agencies and what's also worked out well is we have a network where agencies that are considering doing it reach out to other ones that have , and so it builds that network ?
Mike SpackYeah , and I could see if I was going through the process . I would love to see another agency's kind of accreditation documents as a template , because I love starting with a template or an example versus just a blank page . Yeah , are there any themes that have come out of the accreditation process of wow , that was really hard , or that was great , or most agencies are really missing the boat over here , or is every ?
Scott GraysonIt's a great question but , yeah , every agency is so unique and , through my anecdotal conversations anyway , some practices are harder for some and the same practices are easier for others . But to and A-PWA as a whole , we really want to try to share as much knowledge . We're working on a survey and study right now to try to gather useful information . So , for instance , if you've got nine square miles of roads , how much salt should you order each year ? Just the common things that no one's quite sure about . They've learned through practice , trial and error . But to be able to share that knowledge about how many cars will you need in your fleet and stuff like that Interesting that's great .
Marc CulverWell , like I said , we would love to follow somebody through that process and feel free to let any other agencies that are going through it let them know that we'd be interested in having that conversation , Absolutely , yeah , so , just kind of moving on from the accreditation conversation , what other areas of focus are there for A-PWA and maybe for yourself
Asset Management, Accreditation, and Strategic Initiatives
Marc Culver? Within A-PWA , We've touched a little bit on asset management and I don't know if you want to expand on that some more , but talked about advocating more , and then obviously accreditation . But what else are you guys really looking at ?
Scott GraysonYou know , we have this long history and as part of it we have chapters all over North America and they're great . They really provide the education to local people , and so we've looked at A-PWA as the national or international entity that supplements and helps chapters provide appropriate and targeted education . But local people know what the local needs are , and so we've created a new role on staff . It's the chapter concierge , and so chapters can reach our staff with whatever their needs are . We're here to help to enhance their activities , their experiences , and what we see is there's a lot of great partnering happening at the local . You spoke about that earlier about different local chapters of large international groups partner and then also creating those networks , and we at many of our chapters in the United States partner with LTAP I don't know if you're aware of that and Psychological Assistance Program . It's exactly right now and so they're . Some are even on our chapter boards . They're very much a part of us now and that's worked well . They provide really great education to operations staff . Our board right now is speaking about can we provide more education to operations staff as well , and we're exploring that . But recently our board approved a new strategic plan and we've also approved three new strategic initiatives .
Scott GraysonWhat is diversity , equity , inclusion that's one bucket , even though it's three words Workforce and then also public visibility . We really find under public visibility I mean people who work in public works , as you well know , are very humble , they generally don't need thanks and I've shared that . I was speaking , I was brand new in my role and I went and spoke to the Washington State chapter and I opened up with and I said nobody knows who you are ? And they looked at me like who is this guy ? And I paused a while and I'm like get him out of the stage . And I said , no , that's a great thing . It means everything is working . So we , our group , have a real challenge to promote how great we are and public works , because most things work most of the time .
Mike SpackYeah , there are the crises to promote Like we're doing our job so well , there's nothing for anybody else to think about .
Marc CulverBut it was our first guest , our first episode , mark Ray , and he's the one that put us in touch with you . So shout out to Mark and everybody loves Mark . But he kept saying in his episode we make normal happen . Yep , absolutely , and I think that's a great tagline for us , and we don't stand up and wave our arms and shout , hey , we make normal happen , but we do . And we kind of should stand up and wave our arms and jump up and down and say how awesome , that is that normal . You just take normal for granted .
Scott GraysonNo , exactly right . I mean , when I was hired in my role , I had a friend of mine who said public works , I love that stuff , that's great . He was not part of it at all . He said do you realize , scott , that the advent , the invention of sewers did more for public health than vaccines ? And I'm like wow . And so if we think about public works a little differently and link it with being first responders , being linked with public health truly to Mark's point we create normal . And especially during these last few years with COVID and social unrest , it really was public works that was called upon to create some sense of normalcy .
Marc CulverYeah Well , talk a little bit about workforce development and DEI and those initiatives .
Scott GraysonYeah , so DEI . I'd say every group after George Floyd was killed jumped on that and said we need to have a DEI program . We've had for years a diversity committee and they'd meet and they'd write important articles . But I knew that we needed to ramp it up and I knew that we couldn't be just like every other group . It had to be ours , it had to be a PWA . Where do we play in that space ? And so we actually hire an outside firm that specializes in working with organizations like ours to create a DEI program and what that would look like .
Scott GraysonAnd I thought it was very important that we craft our own . We don't pull from other groups because it might not resonate or it won't be as important . And so the thought was we wanted to create a roadmap that had action items , milestones that we could impact change . We also had to define what would that change even look like ? So we brought in our board of directors we have a young professionals group or YP group and then we also brought in our DEI group as well , and we spent a few months with online meetings with this outside group that worked through definitions and understanding . That culminated in an in-person half day workshop that we brainstorm created a roadmap , so we've got a roadmap right now .
Scott GraysonWe're right at that stage right now and we'll roll it out . What we know is that a lot of cities have their own programs and so we're speaking about communicating best practices , if you will , to chapters , to our board , to our structures , about what that actually looks like and there's really a few prongs . It will look at creating education around DEI , but also , as I was speaking about creating more educational programming for operation staff . It's being more inclusive of the wider body . So when we speak about education , it's not just education about DEI , but being inclusive and providing appropriate education for a wider audience . It's also about governance how are we structured as a PWA to be more inclusive of people ? So the work is underway there and that leads into workforce development as well .
Marc CulverExactly right .
Scott GraysonSo what you're hearing , I'm sure , and is happening everywhere . We're hearing loudly there's a workforce shortage and usually , yeah , and with 1.2 trillion in infrastructure spending , everyone's all excited like , okay , we finally have money . But what I'm hearing is that public agencies can't hire enough people . I'm also hearing that from the private sector as well . Even the engineering firms are having a hard time , and I'm hearing that they've got so many projects that they can't even take on every project and we also have a supply chain shortage all happening at once . We don't like whining about challenges .
Marc CulverWe I mean the public works community we find solutions right , and we sure aren't going to complain about having money Right . They're in the trouble of spending the money . That's exactly right .
Scott GraysonSo we are convening groups from big cities , small cities , rural ones , trying to hear about what the issue is , you know , and what sectors are they not able to hire . But , more importantly , how do you recruit ? What are the tricks of the trade out there to recruit ? We're part of the US House of Representatives Public Works and Infrastructure Caucus and through that our group puts on briefings , and we had one in DC a few weeks ago and we had panelists , the public works directors from Minneapolis , memphis , la County .
Scott GraysonWe also had one from Vancouver Metro and we spoke about you know what are their practices , and there's a whole array of tricks of the trade to recruit . And then I asked them okay , so now you've hired them ? If they actually have , how do you keep them ? And so we're also having a lot of discussions about creating a culture that's attractive , explaining what the mission is , where you fit in as part of the public entity . Yeah , so I mean it's a very big issue and , as I said , it's a strategic initiative . So we're just starting on that path right now and if you have me on some other time , we'll report back on that .
Mike SpackYeah , yeah , my brain wants to know what are the tips and tricks of ?
Mike SpackLike how do people get folks in ? Like one of the stories I've heard , an acquaintance owned an HVAC company out in New Jersey and finding folks young folks to work on furnaces and air conditioners impossible , yeah . And so he ended up a big part of his company and his work was going around to high school teachers and he identified that kind of the kids with the short attention spans but reasonably smart , like hey , you go and work on a furnace for an hour and a half . He would bring them in right after high school and train them completely . And but he would have to go to the individual teachers and say , hey , give me a list of people , kids I can talk to , that aren't going to go to college . Right , and who ? This exactly Bints , and I think we have the challenge and the opportunity in our industry is a lot of our workers almost fit that kind of a mold of hey , go to college prep and you're going on and you're taking the ACT and you're going to get this degree and then this master's degree and then , like it's not a predefined system like that .
Scott GraysonRight , and we are promoting that a lot . But then we hear well , mcdonald's or Amazon are paying $25 an hour . How can we compete ? And so there's , you know things happening in the marketplace . There are . We , as a PWA , need to do more work about making this field of work the most attractive field of work .
Marc CulverYeah , and I think a lot of that is just like Mike was saying . You know , you've got one business owner going out to the high schools and identifying kids . But I think we have to first of all I am normalize , I guess or make it okay , make kids realize hey , it's okay , you can make a good living without going to college . You know , if you don't want to go to college , you don't go to college . You can make a really good living . You can do some , you know things that are outside with your hands , that are on a , you know , a more regular schedule , have really good benefits , retire well , have a good career and you don't have to go to college . You know and just make them aware of this career path and that it's okay . But that's one thing that our society has got to get past is , you know what ? It's okay to go to a trade school or go to this and not go to college .
Mike SpackLike really the dirty jobs , Right , and I think that's the kind of campaign around normalizing . And even my wife was like hey , you had this article of you know the guy who went to the trade school and is an electrician . Well , like maybe our daughters wouldn't want to date them in college , but like it'd be great if our daughters married , you know , like I should know when they were 28, . Like a flumber , yeah , just the stability , and so just no absolutely changing .
Scott GraysonAnd we just had a meeting with the assistant secretary of education in DC and we spoke about these issues and she said her office is willing and wants to work with us about possibly working with community colleges and creating curricula around public works . And she said that she graduated from community of college and the secretary of education graduated from a community college and that , to your point , community college is fine , is great , better in a lot of instances , because heck of a lot of work , agile , less expensive . But she also spoke about trade schools and how important that is . So there is a movement . I also asked her so . Say that your administration changes . You know , is this still ? Do you see this viewpoint carrying on ? I said absolutely , it's not a partisan issue . Okay .
Marc CulverThat's great . So just this has been great , great conversation . Really . This has been great to learn more about APWA and your guys' vision for the future of APWA , and that , just as we close out . One thing that we usually ask our guests is kind of touching on technology and where have you seen technology really make an impact on our industry ? And just to open that up to you , like you know , what area have you really seen or what type of technology have you really seen make an impact on public works ?
Scott GraysonYeah . So when I was hired , I had come from an organization that their big focus was high tech , right . And I thought , well , what's there going to be in public works , right , it's incredible , yeah . And from electric cars , autonomous vehicles , drones and even the , you know , with fleets . I was in DC a couple of weeks ago and we had a technical tour and they showed us their four brand new electric street sweepers Just really cool . Now they don't have chargers yet because that's on the back order , but you know it's beautiful sweepers , yeah , they look good , but they are planning , and so if you've got money in the budget , you start slowly and then you have them .
Scott GraysonThere's all kinds of recording devices now and snow plows that are not only helping understand the ground temperature , the air temperature and how much brine you have to spread , but they're doing other work . They put sensors on these trucks to see what's happening out and about on the streets . Also for repair . Drones are big and great with inspecting bridges and other tasks that people would have to strap on and hang off of a bridge . So there's a lot of emerging technology . Right now , we speak more about trending rather than emerging . It's not as important for us to focus on the bells and whistles and the coolest stuff if it's not that applicable . So we really put on trainings , webinars and then even at our conferences we highlight some of these new trending technologies are Excellent .
Mike SpackWell , this has been fantastic . Thanks for coming in , thanks for having me .
Marc CulverYeah , this has been great and I look forward to some future conversations with you or staff about some of the other things we talked about today .
Accreditation and Growing the Audience
Marc CulverAnd again , I want to put another plug out there If you're thinking about accreditation , go to our website and let us know , and if you want to talk about it , we'd love to talk to you about that . So , thanks again , scott . Thank you so much . This was great , yeah . And one last thing before we go although we don't charge for the professional development hour you just received by listening to the podcast , the public works nerds is not free . If you've listened to more than one episode . The cost is that you tell one colleague about the public works nerds to help us grow our audience . Thank you , thank you , thank you .
